Contrabassoonist Susan Nigro
A Conversation with Bruce Duffie
In the course of doing over 1600 interviews, most of
my guests are people I have known of and respected, or are up-and-comings
in the world of Classical Music. A select few are people who remain
in my circle over many years, and I'm pleased to say that Susan Nigro [pronounced
NYE-gro] is one of those special friends.
Both of us grew up and have spent our lives in the Chicago
area, but our particular bond is that of a common instrument - the lowest
member of the double-reed family. We even had the same teacher, Wilbur Simpson of the
Chicago Symphony Orchestra. He actually began there as the Contrabassoonist
and soon switched to Second Bassoon where he remained for 45 years.
In high school, I played bassoon, then went away to undergraduate school.
When I returned to do my Master's Degree in Music History back at Northwestern,
I needed to continue with an instrument, so I called Wilbur and asked if
he'd be willing to let me play contrabassoon. He was amused and delighted,
and we found an old French instrument for me to honk on. We had a
blast together, and he often spoke of Sue Nigro, who was more into the contra
than anyone he'd ever seen or heard of. He was pleased at her progress,
and actually believed she would make a major mark with this unwieldy monster.
I stayed in touch with Wilbur during my radio career - even finding an excuse
to interview him during the 100th season of the CSO - and he always mentioned
Sue and how pleased he was with her burgeoning career.
I, too, was pleased for her, and as she started to make
recordings, I was able to promote her properly on my programs. Needless
to say, an interview was set up and we met as old friends in 1997 for our
chat. She has a unique mixture of seriousness and playfulness, but
when speaking about her passion, she was all business. This was her
cause, and she was absolutely devoted to it. Now, more than ten years
later, she has several recordings out and a website [www.bigbassoon.com] which
lists her accomplishments and future engagements.
I still see her sometimes at regular concerts of the
CSO, and phone messages and e-mails continue as we both push forward with
our lives. It's a special pleasure, now, to have our formal conversation
transcribed and posted on my own website.
Here is what we said that afternoon . . . . .
Bruce Duffie: You call yourself "the contrabassoonist with a cause."
What, exactly, is the cause?
Susan Nigro: The cause is to get people to listen to the contrabassoon
as a solo instrument, try to give it some respect, and at least give it a
chance to be heard. I sort of view the contrabassoon in the same light
as Rodney Dangerfield: it doesn't get any respect,
and I'm just trying, in my own way, to do something to try and help it out
a little bit because I feel it's a beautiful instrument. It has a
nice sound and people should listen to it.
BD: Why does no one listen to it, ordinarily?
BD: So
you are trying to present it in a different light?
SN: That's the main thing I've been doing. I've
been trying to give recitals on it so people get a chance to hear it in a
solo context and not just in the orchestra. Most of the time when it's
in the orchestra you really can't hear it too well. What they call
a solo in the orchestra, in something like Ravel's Mother Goose suite or the Left Hand Concerto, is a little short
thing. Two or three minutes later it's over and that's it.
BD: So it's more of an effect.
SN: Yes, it is, and it can be very expressive.
The contrabassoon has a very nice sound and it's got a lot of technical capabilities
that people don't realize. It's not quite as
clunky as a tuba - and I don't mean any disrespect by that - but in terms
of having valves. I think the contra has more of a fluid personality,
almost like a string bass in terms of being able to play technical things
and making them sound well, and getting around nicely.
BD: And yet there are not too many people who would go
to a string bass recital, although there are some professional string bassists
who do go around!
SN: Sure, like Gary Karr, for example,
who is a wonderful artist.
BD: When he comes to town, do the two of you get together
and commiserate?
SN: [Chuckles] Actually,
believe it or not, I have corresponded with him, but I've never had the opportunity
to meet him. I'd like to do that someday.
BD: Are contrabassoonists nice gals and nice fellows?
SN: Oh, contrabassoon players are wonderful people. They're usually pretty laid back and friendly, and
non-stressed. They just seem to have something of a party personality.
BD: [Chuckles] Well, the bassoon
is called the clown of the orchestra. Is the contrabassoon the contra-clown,
or the big clown?
SN: I suppose. In one way it helped me with one
of my hobbies, which is musical jokes. It wasn't
that the instrument itself was so funny, but when you play the contrabassoon
you don't play all the time. You have a lot of free time, time off
that you're not playing, so it gives you time to do other things like collect
jokes, or swap humor with other people. So that
could be part of it.
BD: I see. So you're making
a whole long list of contrabassoon jokes?
SN: The jokes aren't just about contrabassoons; they're
about anything having to do with music, or conductors, or orchestras, but
just the fact that you have a lot of free time, you have more time to collect
jokes and talk to people. Contrabassoon players are hobbyists just
by nature. Most contrabassoon players I know have
got at least one or two hobbies that they really avidly pursue, simply because
they have the time to do it.
*
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*
BD: You
play both bassoon and contrabassoon. Is there a big difference in
playing the two instruments?
SN: Not a big difference. If
you play the bassoon, you can get around on the contrabassoon to a certain
extent. There are a few things that you need
to use - a bigger reed, of course, which uses more air, and the biggest
difference would be in terms of the fingering. Without
getting too technical about it, the octave key mechanism on the bassoon and
the contrabassoon is exactly the opposite. On
the bassoon, we have what we call a whisper key; you press down to go into
the lower register of the instrument. Because
it covers up the little hole at the top, you play the lower notes. The contrabassoon operates more along the lines of
a saxophone or an oboe, in that it has two octave keys, and you press one
to go up, not to go down. So it takes a little
getting used to, especially when you're doubling, like in a Mahler symphony
where you're on third or fourth bassoon and contra, you've got to take a
minute and straighten out your thoughts when you're switching instruments,
otherwise you're likely to make a mistake. You really have to think
about what you're doing. You really do. And, of course, the embouchure is a little different,
and there are minor things like that, but the main thing is the octave key
mechanism, which is exactly the opposite.
BD: So it's more than just going from the violin to the
viola, and stretching out.
SN: Oh, yes. It is a bigger
reach, and the upper register fingerings on the contrabassoon are completely
different than on the regular bassoon.
BD: Why is that?
SN: Because it has more harmonics. Some of the
lower notes are different, too, because we add extra keys on the contrabassoon
to increase the resonance of low notes, which you don't do on the regular
bassoon, or "the little bassoon," as we call it. [Both chuckle]
There are a few isolated notes that have exactly the same fingerings, but
not very many. So it's not a huge complicated
issue; it just takes a little to get used to.
BD: Do you really think of it as "the little bassoon,"
even though the regular bassoon is nine feet of tubing? How long is
the contrabassoon?
SN: It's exactly twice as long. It's eighteen feet,
four inches. Those of us who consider ourselves primarily contrabassoonists
would think of the regular bassoon as "the little bassoon". Most regular
bassoon players who play primarily bassoon, think of the contrabassoon
as "the big bassoon." It's just what's normal to you, and what's
normal to me, of course, is the contrabassoon, so the regular bassoon is
a "little bassoon", or a "tenor bassoon".
BD: And the oboe is a descant bassoon?
SN: [Chuckles] We think of
it as the soprano member of the contrabassoon family.
BD: [Laughs] Now your first
record is called "The Big Bassoon". Are you proud to have it called
that?
SN: I am, but it wasn't my idea.
It was suggested by Peter Christ, who heads up Crystal Records. When he first suggested it to me, I was sort of turned
off, as a matter of fact, because I wanted to have the name "contrabassoon"
in the title of the recording. But he explained
to me that a couple of years prior to that, they had issued a recording by
a bass trombonist and had called it "The Big Trombone", and apparently it
had generated a lot of sales and a lot of interest. They had a picture
of him with this big instrument on the front cover and Peter really thought
it was a very good selling point. So he thought
"The Big Bassoon" might be more intriguing, whereas if somebody heard the
title "Contrabassoon," they wouldn't even bother to look any further; they're
not interested. "What's a big bassoon?" That's sort of intriguing. So
instead of just passing it by, they look at it to see, "Is it a regular bassoon,
or is it a contrabassoon, or what is it?", and then maybe they would just
have enough interest to pick it up.
BD: Is it a joke, or is it really a real instrument?
SN: Yes! Exactly. Exactly. So then on the
second CD that's coming out we decided to play that for all it's worth, and
call the second one "Little Tunes for the Big Bassoon" because it's all
shorter works, and of course it's still played on this big bassoon - the
contrabassoon - so we decided to hang on to it. And it worked.
BD: Has the contrabassoon been standardized so that one
contrabassoon is like another contrabassoon?
SN: Not to the extent that the bassoon has, but pretty
much, yes. I could pick up another contrabassoon that's different from
my own and play it pretty well, but there are some differences - small differences
- in terms of the shapes of the keys. We have an ancillary E-flat
key for the middle E-flat on the instrument. We can't play a forked
E-flat like the regular bassoon does. It doesn't work on the contra,
so you have to have an extra key which could either be with the ring finger
or with the right thumb, or sometimes with the right hand first finger,
just depending on which instrument you have. So there are minor differences
like that. Some of the contrabassoons don't have
both F-sharps, like the regular bassoon has, and the octave key mechanisms
vary a little bit from one instrument to the other.
BD: Now this, of course, is all with the standard German
fingering system.
SN: Yes, and of course the Buffet contrabassoon is like
the Buffet little bassoon, so it has French fingering.
I haven't had much direct experience with that other system.
BD: Are you glad that the instrument you use has the bell
folded down so that it doesn't stick way up like the French models?
SN: Yes, because you get complaints from the people that
sit behind you when you play the big tall one. I
have played those and they're hard to balance. I always feel like
they're top-heavy and they're about ready to tip over.
There's a great deal of weight on your left arm just trying to support
it. And then you've always got complaints from
behind you, "Uh, could you move to the left or to
the right? I can't see the conductor." So it does get to be rather annoying after a while. This shorter, more folded-over one they call the
"opera model", because it was for use in the opera pit. It is a lot
more convenient in terms of not annoying other players, and it's also easier
to play in terms of the balance and the weight.
BD: Here comes another brass player joke, then.
They should say, "Can you please move, I can still see the conductor." [Both
laugh]
*
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*
BD: You're encouraging people to write solos for the contrabassoon. Are you also encouraging them to write better parts
for the contrabassoon in orchestral literature?
SN: If I were in a position to do so, I would. I
don't have a real wide influence at this point. I
worked with several composers in writing solo works for the contra.
Certainly, if they would write an orchestral piece I would try my very
best to get them to include a contra part, and to make it sure it was a
good one, not just one of these "throwaway" parts where you're doubling
the cellos, or doubling the tuba, not heard at all. That doesn't make any sense. I always think that
Brahms had the right idea in his symphonies. He used either the contrabassoon
or the tuba. The contrabassoon is in Symphonies
1, 3, and 4; the tuba plays in Symphony no. 2. We
don't get in each other's way. He did use both instruments in the
Academic Festival Overture, but they're independent of each other. They very rarely
play the same notes or the same line, so he was real intelligent about
that. Mahler also had ideas in that direction. My favorite Mahler symphony is number 4, because it
doesn't have a tuba. It's more of a chamber work and the contra can
be heard. But even in the bigger works where you
have both instruments, tuba and the contra, he seems to keep them out of
each other's way so the different timbres can be heard. He also uses
them in different functions from each other.
BD: So he was really a sympathetic composer.
SN: Yes, I think so. Many
composers that write parts for the contra, no matter how well-intended
they are, just throw it in with everything else and let it double what somebody
else is already doing. That really doesn't do a whole lot of good.
BD: It doesn't make for a meatier sound down there at
the bottom?
SN: They think it does. I don't know. I'm
quite convinced that if the whole brass section is blowing away at a big
forte, you probably can't hear the contrabassoon at all.
I doubt very seriously that you could. It might add something
to the overall timbre, but you just really can't hear it very much.
BD: But if you take it away, wouldn't it lighten the sound
a bit?
SN: Perhaps, perhaps. But
it is sort of frustrating to be sitting there and blowing at a double or
triple forte, and just being covered up by everybody else sitting around
you. It's just not very rewarding to have that happen.
BD: So that's why you're trying to get solos written
for you?
SN: I'm trying to get solos written for it, because even
when they do write for it in the orchestra, a lot of times it does
wind up being buried, unless it's a chamber orchestra piece like the Dvořák
Serenade for Winds, for example.
That's very nice because the contrabassoon can be heard; or the Mozart Serenade for 13 Winds, if they let
it be played by a contra rather than giving it to the string bass, as so
many people do. That's also very nice because
it's an independent part and you don't have somebody competing with you in
the same register. Not that I'm not a cooperative
type and don't want to share things, but what's the point of writing for
an instrument if nobody can hear it?
BD: When you ask someone to write you a piece, do you
give them any more parameters than just, "Write me a piece"?
SN: No. I would talk to them about the instrument
and give them some recordings of things that I've done, so they get a chance
to hear it. Of course, you're usually approaching a sympathetic soul
in the first place, either a bassoon player, or somebody who knows a bassoon
player, or somebody who's really into woodwinds. You talk to them a
little bit and get them used to the idea about writing a solo for the instrument. It isn't something that they agree to right away,
so you have them come and hear you play, or you give them a tape so they
get the sound of the instrument in their ear. Then, of course, they
have a lot of questions such as, "What is the range
of the instrument? What can it do in terms of
dynamics? Can it play fast notes?" I will
work with the composer. Lots of times they will
send me a sketch of something they've written. I'll
look at it and I'll play it through and make some comments - not from a compositional
standpoint, but just in terms of playability. Sometimes
I'll even throw a cassette on the machine and play for them what they've
written to let them hear how it sounds on the instrument so they can tell
if it works or doesn't work, not from a compositional standpoint, but just
from a practical performance standpoint. They
don't want to write something that's unplayable, or something that doesn't
sound good. I've worked with two or three composers that way, who've
been real nice to take my suggestions and allow me to help them that way. But it's still their piece. I'm in no way a
composer, and I know my limitations.
BD: Sure, but your experience as a player can help them
out.
SN: Absolutely. The contrabassoon is not an instrument
that people know as well as the other ones. They don't teach it in
the composition classes - at least not in terms of soloistic capabilities
- and people just really don't know what it can and cannot do.
BD: Maybe that's who you should be contacting - the composition
teachers and the theoricians - to put in a plug for the contrabassoon right
at the top.
SN: I've tried as much as I can. When one of the
smaller orchestras I play with around town is premiering a work, I will almost
always talk to that composer afterwards and say, "You wrote a really nice
contrabassoon part in this piece and I really enjoy it.
Would you like to think about writing a solo for the contra?"
Sometimes they're receptive, and sometimes they're not, so you just have
to go about it that way and try to sell yourself without really hitting 'em
over the head, because most people, quite frankly, have never thought of
writing a solo for the instrument.
BD: But if they wrote a poor part for it, will you tell
them that it could've been a little more interesting, or that it was just
a boring part?
SN: I try to be diplomatic about these things, and try
to find some of what they did that was good and bring that out first.
"I wish you could've made more of that, or maybe given it a little bit more
to do," or, "You had a really good idea but it doesn't work well on this
particular instrument." I try real hard not to come down on any composer
in any way, because I want to encourage them, not discourage them. I don't want them to think of me as an unpleasant
person who's going to be real judgmental if they try to write something
for me. I want to try to be helpful and try to
be upbeat and be encouraging to them.
*
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*
BD: I assume that quite a bit of the material you play
was not originally written for the contrabassoon.
SN: That's true.
I do a lot of transcriptions. The first
CD I had out - "The Big Bassoon" - all those pieces were written for me,
so that was sort of an exception. The pieces
that are going to be on my second CD mostly are transcriptions that were written
for either the bassoon or for some other instrument that have been transcribed,
or I simply sat down and read off the original music.
Three pieces were written for alto sax! It's very easy. You just change the clef and change the key signature
and you play it! It's not a big deal. So it works well. Bassoon
music, of course, works well too.
BD: Have you tried playing a Vivaldi piccolo concerto
or something like that just for effect? [Vis-à-vis the recording
shown at right, see my interview with Frank Warren.]
SN: I haven't done that yet, but I've got some Vivaldi
bassoon concertos that I've done, which I enjoy very much. Right now
I'm taking a real hard at look at some flute music that was written by Bach.
I'm thinking about doing an all-Bach program one of these days, so if I can
make that work I sure will.
BD: [Half tongue-in-cheek] Bach
on the contrabassoon!
SN: Yes, why not? If he had
known what it could do, he probably would've given it a chance. But
he was a composer, of course, that predated the instrument. Well,
I don't know if he predated it or not, because Handel wrote for it, but in
the field that Bach was writing - church music and cantatas - he wouldn't
have had any use for it. So I can't really fault him for not using
it. And the instrument they had back then was
not very well developed, it wasn't very refined. It didn't have very
many technical capabilities. I always marvel at
the Vivaldi bassoon concerti knowing the instrument they had back then.
There were only nine or ten keys on the instrument, and for those people to
be able to execute difficult music like that with a severely limited keywork
capability was amazing.
BD: Very much like the valveless horns and trumpets!
SN: Yes! Sure. What they did was amazing.
BD: When did the bassoon and then the contrabassoon come
into what we now would recognize as being standardized?
SN: I would say probably the early-to-mid-1800s. By the late Classical or early Romantic period it's
pretty much the way it is now.
BD: Did they progress together, or was it first the bassoon
and then the contra?
SN: The bassoon first, and then the contra. The contra really isn't as well developed as the bassoon. It's as far as it's going to get, but it hasn't got
the huge number of keys that the bassoon has, and all the alternate fingerings
that the bassoon has, because most people feel it doesn't need to have all
the technical capabilities because it doesn't have to do that as often. The orchestra parts for the contrabassoon are, by
and large, much simpler than they are for the regular bassoon, or the little
bassoon. They're playing bass lines or they're
doubling the cello part. Once in a while you'll get a melodic line,
but it's not usually terribly difficult. I don't mean that in a bad
way, but people who make the instrument saw that it didn't really need to
have all the bells and whistles that the regular bassoon had, so they just
haven't done it. The Fox bassoon company in this
country has made some advances. They put some rollers on the instrument
and they've given you a couple different options in terms of octave keys,
and that special E-flat key we talked about before.
But there's no contrabassoon in the world that has both A-flat keys
that the bassoon has. I guess people just realize
that they don't need it, so they don't make it.
BD: Would you like to have it?
SN: Oh, sure, because it gives you more opportunities
to use different fingerings, depending on what key you're playing in. Not that you use it all the time, but it comes in
handy.
BD: Have you had your instrument modified at all?
SN: I ordered an instrument to be built,
and I specified the keywork that I wanted to have on it.
My contrabassoon was built back in 1977. It's going to have
a birthday, and be twenty years old in May.
I made a whole list of things that I wanted them to do, most of which they
could. Some things they didn't offer as options,
so, obviously, I couldn't have them, but I have some extra trill keys, and
some extra rollers that I had built on to it. That
was not with the idea that I would be doing anything like I am now.
Twenty years ago I had no idea, but I just wanted to have as many options
on there as I could have to increase my technical capacity.
BD: Then do you modify it little by little every year,
or every five years?
SN: I had some work done on the octave keys a couple
years ago. I had them made larger and also moved down a little bit
- not actually for a technical reason, but I was having trouble with some
tendonitis in my left thumb. I realized it was
because I was having to stretch, a real big stretch, a big reach to get to
the octave keys, and I had developed a real problem in my left thumb as a
result. So they lengthened the two octave keys and moved them a little
bit lower to make it easier to play. So you can
have them do things like that if you want and they'll do what they can to
accommodate you.
BD: They should make the Sue Nigro
model contrabassoon.
SN: [Chuckles] It'd be nice,
but I don't see it happening.
BD: You don't need to mention names, but are there any
others who are trying to make it as a solo contrabassoonist?
SN: There's a young lady in South America [Mónica
Fucci of Buenos Aires] who plays in one of the orchestras down there
and has done several concertos with that orchestra. And I know that there are people in this country,
too, who have also done concertos. For example, the Gunther Schuller Contrabassoon Concerto was premiered in
1978 by Lewis Lipnick, the contrabassoonist in the Washington, D.C. orchestra.
It was written for him. He commissioned it and premiered it, and it
was played a couple years later by the contrabassoon player in Pittsburgh.
Donald Erb has written
a concerto for Gregg Henegar, the contrabassoon player who's in Boston now,
but previously was in Houston, and that's where he premiered it in 1984. So there have been some other players who have done
some works. I don't know if anybody is crazy
to do it to the extent that I have. I've done more or less the recital
route rather than the orchestra route, if for no other reason that I'm not
a full-time member of any orchestra. I'm a freelance
player around Chicago, and I play with some of the smaller orchestras.
If I can talk them into letting me do a concerto, I certainly will, but
that doesn't often happen, so my only choice is to do recital work instead.
BD: But you also play with the Chicago Symphony when they
need you.
SN: Yes. They joke about putting
me on pension. I've been a substitute with them for 22 years! [Laughter] So at least
I've got some longevity down there, but I'm not a full-time performer, so
I don't feel like I'm in a position with them, or any of the other groups,
to really insist upon any type of a solo thing. I
can offer it to them and I can tell them what I've got available, and if
they want me to do it, that's terrific, but...
BD: ...but it gives you the cachet that you are on that
level to be able to perform with them on a regular basis.
SN: [Modestly] I suppose that's
true...
BD: Does that give you a good feeling as far as your professional
standing?
SN: Oh, of course!
Sure it does. It really does, and it helps
you to keep your standards up, too. When you play with fine musicians
all the time like that, you always play better. It's contagious. I had a really nice opportunity about two years ago.
It was in the spring of 1995 that I got to do the Gunther Schuller Contrabassoon Concerto with the Omaha
Symphony and Maestro Schuller conducting. Talk
about standards, having the composer right on the podium conducting while
you play. That was a wonderful opportunity for me, and I enjoyed that
very much.
BD: Was he pleased with you? [Vis-à-vis
the recording shown at left, see my interview with Burrill Phillips.]
SN: I think so. He's not one
that really puts a lot of accolades on people. He'll tell you if there's
something he doesn't like, there's no question about that, and if he doesn't
say too much, then that usually means that he's satisfied.
BD: Were you able to find something in there and show
him an even better way, or some extra brilliance in one of his parts?
SN: We talked a little bit about the cadenza in a couple
of the movements and different ideas about how it should be played.
He pretty much let me do it the way I wanted, so that was a good thing. He did the slow movement very, very slowly, so I had
to work out my breathing to be a little different than I had originally planned. But these were things that were pretty much a cooperative
effort between the two of us, and I felt that it was a learning experience
for us both. I don't mean that I could teach him anything about composition,
but just in terms of the instrument and in terms of the way it's played.
BD: You don't do any kind of circular breathing, do you?
SN: No, I've never done that. I did study with Arnold
Jacobs for about three years just in order to be able to use my air capacity
to its peak, so I feel like I've got a pretty good command over my four and
a half liters. It's hard when you have a really high-flow-rate instrument. It's easier, for example, with an oboe, where you're
just letting small amounts of air out at a time. You can sort of keep
that going with however they do it with their cheeks, and sort of breathe
in through your nose while you're letting it out through your mouth.
But when you've got an instrument like the contrabassoon or the tuba where
these huge quantities are passing through, I just think it's a lot less
practical. It's not as easy to do.
BD: Do you need as much air for the contrabassoon as for
the tuba?
SN: Not as much as for the tuba, but certainly more than
you would need for the little bassoon. Actually, the bassoon and
the flute are very similar in terms of their demands of the amount of air
because when you play the flute a lot of the air spills over the top and
it's wasted. It doesn't all go into the instrument. The bassoon
doesn't take nearly as much air as the contra; the contra takes substantially
more. And in terms of equating it with instruments
people know, I do a little bit of saxophone playing - more or less as a hobby.
The bassoon and the tenor saxophone need about same amount of air. The contrabassoon is much closer to the baritone
sax in terms of the amount of air you need to put through it to keep it
going.
BD: Should the baritone or the bass saxophone player,
or the contrabass clarinet player get their own solo shots too?
SN: I certainly can't speak for them, but I don't see
why not! Any instrument has its own individual
timbre and certainly deserves to be heard, and if people can write for it
and people can play it, I don't see why not. I just get a little distressed
after a while that every symphony concert you go to the soloist is always
a violinist, pianist, or maybe once in a while a cellist
or a flute... maybe the French horn. But you
hardly ever have a trombone soloist or a viola soloist much less a contrabassoon
or an alto clarinet or something like that. It just doesn't happen. For example, I love the Donizetti English Horn Concerto. It's a little
corny, it's a little wacky, but it's a wonderful piece and you never ever
see it programmed anywhere. I just think that's
such a shame that these other instruments don't have a chance to do that.
BD: Is there a camaraderie amongst those who play contrabassoons
in the big orchestras?
SN: Oh yes, I think there is. I
really do. There's the International Double Reed
Society which is made up of oboists and bassoonists.
They have an annual conference, and you always see a great fraternity
of bassoon players in general, but contrabassoon players in particular, because
there's not as many of us. The few times that
I've gone to take auditions for orchestras, you always see the same people,
and they're always sitting around talking and exchanging stories. They
seem to be a real fraternal group. Just because
of our small numbers, you get to know people, and it's not really such a
competitive atmosphere. It's more or less a fraternal one, which is
nice. There could be exceptions, and maybe
there are people that don't fall into that mold, but by and large, contrabassoon
players are fairly laid-back people and there's a lot of camaraderie among
us.
BD: I would assume that if you don't have that kind of
temperament, you would fall by the wayside.
SN: I think so. Most of the
contrabassoon players I've met have been really nice, friendly people, and
it doesn't seem like they have the cutthroat mentality that you find with
instruments where there's a lot more competition. That's engendered
by the instrument.
BD: Is that part of your own personality?
SN: I've often wondered if people that
had that personality choose the contrabassoon, or if the contrabassoon makes
you that way. I don't know. It's the old question
- which came first, the chicken or the egg? I
don't know. I consider myself to be sort of a
laid-back person, not real uptight or cutthroat or anything, and maybe the
instrument suits me for that reason.
BD:
Did you start out on the bassoon and move to the larger instrument?
SN: I started out as a flute player believe it or not.
That was my first instrument. The flute is a wonderful instrument,
but I just was not a very good flute player. It wasn't my instrument. Everybody's got to find the instrument for them, so I played the flute for a couple of years until I discovered
the bassoon, and then of course I took over the bassoon right away.
It's a funny story: When I was in high school
I was in the Youth Orchestra of Greater Chicago. I
was a bassoon player who wound up at the bottom of the section who got stuck
playing the contra! I know that this happens
very often, but the thing is, once I got started I never wanted to stop,
because I really dug the instrument. I really liked it and I realized
that this was something I could do and be happy doing.
So that's how it happened. I was just at the bottom end of
the heap, and somebody had to play the contrabassoon on Death and Transfiguration, which was
the first piece I had to do. So that's how it got started, a long time
ago.
BD: And you've been happy with it ever since.
SN: I really have, yes. I didn't start doing the
solo thing for a long, long time, because, quite frankly, I didn't really
consider that that was a possibility. I just
tried to make sure that I got to play the contrabassoon in the orchestra
whenever one was required. Everybody else seemed
to want to play first bassoon all the time, so they never had to deal with
me, because I was more happy playing contrabassoon. That was what
I wanted to do. I got my first taste of the
contrabassoon solo thing when I was a student at Northwestern. The
Wind Ensemble was doing a piece by Henk Badings, a concerto for bassoon,
contrabassoon, and wind ensemble. At that time
it was a fairly new piece, and since I was the only one that wanted to have
anything to do with the contrabassoon, I was the one that got to do the contra
solo line. And it really got me thinking about
maybe doing some stuff with the contrabassoon that would be of a solo nature. But back then there was just nothing written for
the instrument, so it took a long, long time to actually make that happen.
BD: Do you make your own transcriptions?
SN: I do, up to a point. There's a lot of things
that you don't really have to do a whole lot with, as we mentioned, like
the saxophone music. All you really need to do is change the clef and
the key signature, though some isolated things don't fit into the register
too well. Some of the bassoon pieces I can play right from the music,
unless there's an extended amount of notes up in the upper register, which
really isn't practical for the contra. It doesn't go quite as high as
the bassoon and it doesn't really have the carrying power in the extreme upper
register. Sometimes certain sections that were
written for bassoon in the upper register have to be brought down to a lower
octave, or adjusted in some way. But, like I
said before, I'm not really a composer, so any adjustments I would do would
be of a very minor nature.
BD: But you're a professional on the instrument, so you
know what works! Even so, are there times when
the composer just looks at you and says, "Do it."?
SN: Yes, there have been times like that, so I said,
"Well, I'll do the best I can." That's all you can do. It's like, "The customer is always right." The
composer's always right, and if they don't want to change it... That's a very personal thing. A composer has
written some music and that's his piece of music. You
can make suggestions and you can make comments, but in the end it has to
be his or her piece.
BD: Are you basically pleased with what has been written
for you?
SN: I am. Some things haven't been done yet.
I would like to see some pieces written for the contra that have some elements
of jazz in them. I think the contrabassoon would make a really neat
jazz instrument. I've often thought that it could
be used in a jazz ensemble instead of a bari sax or a string bass.
It could have some little solos because it has that kind of a sound, and people
haven't actually seen that aspect of it yet. They see it as a more
serious instrument, which is okay, but it can also be a lot of fun and it
can also sort of swing. I would like to see composers
write some of that in a piece for me. Not that
I'm really adept at that kind of thing. I certainly would have to work
at it a little bit, because, being a bassoon player and a contrabassoon player
all these years, I don't improvise, and I haven't really done a lot of jazz
playing. But the instrument's got a good capacity for that.
BD: We're kinda dancing around it, so let me ask the big
question: what's the purpose of music?
SN: Oh, boy. The purpose of
music... Music is a universal language. It
can express things that you can't say. Basically, things that you feel,
that you can't ever really describe, you can do with your music. At least that's the way I feel about it. It tells a story. I've taught music for a lot
of years to children and a lot of kids have questions about it too.
I just say, "Listen to this and try to think about what's happening," or,
"How does it make you feel?" Not that all music
is programmatic, because it isn't, but music gives you a mood or it gives
you a feeling or makes you think about certain things. It conveys things
that words can't always do. That's just basically
the way I think about it.
BD: Should the music that you play be for everyone?
SN: No, no, I don't think so. It would be nice
if everybody could enjoy your music, but there are certain cultural differences
that sometimes make it different for different people. For example,
I love to listen to sitar music from India, but it took me a long time to
get into that because of the microtones they use and the different scales
and different patterns. For people to get into music that's different
from their background is sometimes a difficult thing.
I have no doubt that somebody from India listening to me play the
contrabassoon might not be all that pleased with what they hear because it's
just a whole different thing. It's important to listen to different
styles of music, but nobody is going to like all kinds of music. They
have to decide for themselves.
*
* * *
*
BD: Are you pleased with where you are at this point in
your career?
SN: [Thinks for a moment] I would like to be further along, or younger - one
of the two. [Laughter] I
wish I had started doing this a little bit earlier, but basically I'm glad
with what's happening. I just wish things could happen a little faster,
I suppose. I suppose everybody would like to
be a little further ahead. I'm further ahead
now than I thought I would be two or three years ago.
Things have happened for me the last couple of years that have been
really good, and I'm real pleased with that.
BD: Such as the recording?
SN: The recording was a big move in the right direction.
I wish I had done that earlier, but, thinking back...
BD: [Interjects] I don't think
the time was right, earlier.
SN: I think that's true. I don't think the time
was right earlier, and I don't think I, personally, was ready earlier. When I think about when I did that, if I had tried
to do it five or ten years earlier, I don't think I had the musical maturity
at that point and maybe not even the technical finesse to do what I did when
I did it. So maybe I wish I had developed, ten
or 15 years earlier so I could've started doing it sooner.
BD: We see this in opera singers all the time, the basses
tend to develop a little bit later, but then they last longer!
SN: That's true. I fully intend to live to be 100.
I have a long way to go and I want to play for a long, long time. I do everything I can to keep myself healthy and in
good shape so I can play the instrument. It's a big instrument to haul
around and it requires a lot of energy to play. You've gotta be healthy
and you've gotta have a clear mind. It's important to try to keep yourself
physically and mentally healthy so you can perform to your best ability. Then the longevity comes with that.
BD: Was the record your idea, or somebody else's suggestion?
SN: The first one was actually my idea, and it came in
sort of a roundabout way. I used to call myself
the "premiere contrabassoonist" before I got this "crusader on the contrabassoon"
idea. Because I had premiered so many pieces
that people had written - not that they had all been written for me, though
a couple were - but I had premiered pieces that had been written and never
played. Then I suddenly realized I had enough pieces that had been
written for me to fill up a compact disc! I had
about an hour's worth of music and I thought, "Gee, wouldn't it be nice for
these composers to have their piece recorded, so people could hear them at the same time? I got these pieces published so
people could buy them, and it wouldn't be bad for me, either, to be on a
disc." So it was a win-win situation for everybody.
BD: But it's interesting that you put yourself third.
SN: The performer is never the main thing. The
composer is because without them there'd be no music.
And the instrument has always been a primary focus of mine, to get
people to hear the instrument, not to get people to hear me. I'm just the person behind the instrument.
The instrument is the main thing.
BD: Are you part of the instrument, or does the instrument
become part of you?
SN: [Takes a deep breath] The
two of us are really inseparable. People always
caution you against relating too closely to your instrument. It's not a good thing to equate yourself with an instrument,
but I've really gotten to the point that if somebody makes a nasty comment
about the contrabassoon I take it personally. I
know that's not always a healthy thing, but I just relate so much to that
instrument it's become a part of my personality. It's impossible for
me to think of myself out of context with that.
BD: But you still put it aside, put it in the case at
night and close up the case.
SN: Oh, of course. Sure. I'll go out to a movie, or go out and do something
else, and enjoy myself, but it's always on my mind and it's always a part
of me. It's gotten to be that way. Most musicians, to a certain extent, do get to that
point. Maybe not to the extent that I have, because it's an unusual
instrument, and maybe because I find myself so much on the defensive because
a lot of people don't always say nice things about it. The contrabassoon
is the least-known instrument in the orchestra. Nobody knows what
it sounds like because they don't get a chance to hear it. Not too
many people could draw a picture of it. It's
just a big unknown quantity to people. Of the instruments that are
regular members of the orchestra the contrabassoon player sort of is the
wallflower.
BD: That's true. People know the piccolo, and they
know the bass clarinet...
SN: ...and the English horn. So
we're just trying, maybe in an obnoxious way, to just keep pushing it out
in the front so people see it all the time and hear it all the time so at
least they know it's there. They can dislike
it if they want to dislike it, but at least they have to know what it is and
give it a chance. Listen to it first and if you tell me you don't like
it after you've heard it, that's fine. But don't
tell me you don't like it before you've given it a shot.
BD: I have a feeling you will have really succeeded when
the audience goes home and says, "Gee... there was no contrabassoon tonight!"
SN: That would be nice! That
would be nice. It's only in about 35 percent
of the orchestral compositions at this point. I
read that somewhere, so about one piece out of every three, or one piece
on each program usually has a contrabassoon part. There
are whole programs, of course, that go by that don't have contrabassoon parts
at all. You get more in Romantic and modern music,
but more often than not it's a visitor to the orchestra just on part of
the concert.
BD: A regular visitor.
SN: A regular visitor. A regular
visitor.
BD: I hope that it's now being written as part of the
standard setup.
SN: I think it is. In orchestration
classes that are being taught, when they give people score paper to write
their orchestra piece, there's always a line for the contrabassoon, which
is good. It's real important, and sometimes
in chamber music they tend to think about it more often than they used to,
which is good, too.
BD: I know that there are even a couple
of pieces which call for two contrabassoons.
SN: Yes! Yes, as a matter
of fact the Symphony's going to be doing the complete Firebird ballet two or three weeks from
now, and that's got two contrabassoon parts. The Rite of Spring is another one.
There's two pieces by Varèse, Arcana
and Amériques. Also Schoenberg's Gurre-Lieder. So
that's five pieces that I know right off the bat that have two separate contrabassoon
parts.
BD: What about a duet for two contrabassoons! [Vis-à-vis
the recording shown at right, see my interviews with Arthur Weisberg, and
William Eddins.]
SN: Donald Erb wrote Five Red-Hot Duets for two contrabassoons.
BD: Is that a good combination?
SN: I think so! I like it.
It's an interesting combination, the way he uses them.
He writes the first contrabassoon quite a bit in the
upper register, and then confines the second contrabassoon more or less to the lower register, so they almost sound like two different
instruments. It's very clever the way he did
that. It's a difficult piece, very difficult.
BD: I still think you should find a piccolo player and
go out as a duet.
SN: [Chuckles] Well, you never know what could happen.
I've tried to get some clarinet players interested in doing the Beethoven
duets for clarinet and bassoon. Maybe I can get some bass clarinet
player or something, but I haven't really been successful yet. So we'll
see. The contrabassoon has to play transcriptions. There are going
to be more pieces written for it, but you're never going to have enough material
that's original. When I first started out doing
this, I was real adamant. The first two or three years that I played
recitals, I wasn't going to play anything that wasn't written for the contrabassoon,
period. I was going to be a real purist, and after two years I ran
out of music. Gary Karr was the one who got me
into doing transcriptions. I had sent him a recording of my stuff and
had written him a note expressing frustration about that, and he said, "Hey,
get over that. If you're going to play a solo on this instrument, you
have to get out of the hang-up about using transcriptions
and play music that was written for other instruments.
There's no way around it." He really cured me of that, and really opened up whole new worlds to me.
Now I can think about playing music by Cherubini or
Rossini or Mozart on the contrabassoon, and that's
really neat! It works really well, but you just
have to realize that you're not going to do original
works all the time. And
actually it's good in another way because you might
play a piece of music that somebody recognizes. They've heard it before, like a couple of movements from a Bach cello suite. They've heard somebody play that, so they recognize the
music. That way it's not always a brand-new piece of music that they're
not accustomed to. It's something they've heard before, but in a new
context, so they can actually concentrate on listening
to the instrument, not just the piece of music, which
is good.
*
* * *
*
BD:
Coming back, for a moment, to the idea of becoming the instrument, I can
see, when you play it, that you have to hold onto it in a very special and
very intimate way.
SN: Yes! You sort of surround the instrument, you really do. When you sit to play it, you've always got one foot behind the floor
peg so it doesn't slip, and the other leg sort of in
front of the instrument to give it something to rest against. So you sort of cradle the
instrument with your body. Then you're holding
it with one arm and supporting it with the other, so you are surrounding the instrument in a way.
BD: You have to be half athlete and half contortionist!
SN: If you were extremely fat it would be a problem because you wouldn't
be able to get close enough to play the instrument. And if you weren't
real agile it could be a problem, too. Also there is the issue of just
carrying the instrument around. It's a big, heavy instrument which weighs
about 15 pounds, and that's not counting the case, which usually weighs another 15 pounds or so.
So you have to be in some sort of decent physical
shape just to be able to haul the thing around up and
down the stairs and things like that.
BD: A bowling ball is 16 pounds...
SN: Is it really?
BD: Yes. So you're carrying around the weight of
two bowling balls.
SN: Well it's good exercise. It's sort of a circular
thing - it's good to do it because it keeps you in shape, but then
you're in shape because you're doing it. Also it's good for your lungs, too. It does take a certain quantity of air, so you've gotta have good breath control
to be able to play it. It's almost therapeutic
- the more you play it the more you develop your breathing capabilities! I find when I pick up the bassoon I can play it forever before I have to take a breath, which is wonderful! It's nothing that I've done. I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but it's just because of playing the contra so much you get used to dealing with large volumes of air.
You take in a full breath almost every time, so as a result, when you're playing a smaller
instrument that doesn't require as much air, you can just keep going and going and going and going!
BD: Like the Energizer Bunny!
SN: Exactly.
BD: Have you ever tried putting a contra reed on the single
bassoon?
SN: Yes. Everything comes out a half-step lower. So you could play a low A on the bassoon if you put
a contrabassoon reed, but the timbre is not real good and it's sort of a fuzzy sound.
BD: In the Nielsen Quintet,
you have to stick something in the bell (of the little bassoon) for the
low A at the end. Is there anything like that
for the contrabassoon that you can do to make it a little lower?
SN: I've never done that. First of all, you're sort of limited in that the bell already points down, so if you're going
to stick something in there, it's probably going to
fall out unless there's some way of actually affixing it.
There are some contrabassoons that are built
to go down to a low A. Heckel
builds one that has like a detachable bell, so you
can choose either a short, straight bell, which goes down to low C, or you can change
it and put in this whole other connection which goes all the way down to
a low A. So that is one
possibility.
BD: Like more tubing on the bass trombone.
SN: Exactly. But the problem with that is that it throws off the scale and it makes a lot of changes in the timbre. Plus some of the notes in the low
register are a little bit out of tune because of the
extra linkage. There is one contrabassoon player in Austria who does a little bit of solo work himself, who has built for himself a contrabassoon which goes down to A-flat, which must be just
a horrible thing to have to carry around. That extra semitone, just from B-flat to an A, adds over an extra foot. So down to
the A-flat we're talkin' another 18 inches, maybe.
I'm not sure that it's worth it, but I'm sure he had
a reason for doing it.
BD: There are Bösendorfer pianos that have extra
keys down at the bottom, so it's probably the same kind of thing.
SN: I suppose that's true. I've
competed with those instruments in recital. I did a recital once on the contrabassoon
where we had one of those pianos to deal with, and of course it reinforces all the
low register which, for me, was the worst possible thing that could've happened. You can't
run interference with the piano.
BD: [Chuckles] In the end,
though, I hope you find it's all worth it.
SN: It is.
It is. This has become my life,
it really has. I used to resent
it when people thought of me just as a contrabassoon
player, but now I think of it
that way. I don't like them thinking of me as
the "big bassoonist." That's the one thing that
I've had to deal with since I've gotten this "big bassoon"
thing.
BD: I like it when you leave messages
on my phone: "Hi, it's Sue Nigro, the contrabassoon
player." It reinforces your cause. You're reminding them that the contrabassoon is out there. Don't forget me.
SN: If I can leave some sort of
a legacy, it would be to make
people more aware of the instrument, and to be more willing to listen to
it. And to like it, of course. I can't
make them like it, but I can hope that they'll like
it, and I can do my part to make it sound as good as I possibly can, so they'll have a favorable
impression of it.
BD: Thank you for the conversation.
I appreciate it very much.
SN: My pleasure.
This interview was recorded in Chicago on March 24, 1997. Portions
were used (along with recordings) on WNIB later that year and again the following
year, and on WNUR in 2004. This transcription was edited and posted
on this website in 2008.
To see a full list (with links) of interviews which have been transcribed and posted on this website, click here. To read my thoughts on editing these interviews for print, as well as a few other interesting observations, click here.
Award - winning broadcaster Bruce Duffie was with WNIB, Classical 97 in Chicago from 1975 until its final moment as a classical station in February of 2001. His interviews have also appeared in various magazines and journals since 1980, and he now continues his broadcast series on WNUR-FM, as well as on Contemporary Classical Internet Radio.
You are invited to visit his website for more information about his work, including selected transcripts of other interviews, plus a full list of his guests. He would also like to call your attention to the photos and information about his grandfather, who was a pioneer in the automotive field more than a century ago. You may also send him E-Mail with comments, questions and suggestions.