Mimi Lerner and Monte Jaffe Interview with Bruce Duffie . . . . . . . .

Mezzo - Soprano Mimi Lerner
-- and --
Bass - Baritone Monte Jaffe

A Conversation with Bruce Duffie

We met in July of 1980 in the studios of WNIB, Classical 97 in Chicago. The first purpose of this interview was to promote the performances of Cinderella by Rossini, being performed by Opera Midwest. So, it was special to speak with the title character, mezzo-soprano Mimi Lerner, and Don Magnifico, being played by bass-baritone Monte Jaffe.

Following that part of the discussion, my guests were gracious enough to continue chatting with me about other operatic topics. There was much laughter, as well as serious opinion concerning many relevant ideas.

Here is what was said on that lively afternoon . . . . .

Bruce Duffie:   Tell me about working with with Opera Midwest.

Mimi Lerner:   I hope this is the first of many operas I will do because it’s been a really nice experience, with a nice cast and friendly people. It’s been a nice way to work on an opera. I’ve had a good time.

BD:   This includes the producers and directors?

Lerner:   Yes. We have strong direction and a very good conductor, Richard Boldrey. He has a very clear idea of what he wants, but is not rigid. The singers express our views, so it’s been really a pleasure.

BD:   [To Jaffe] Have you done other things with Opera Midwest? [Vis-à-vis the biography at right, see my interviews with Michael Torke, and Robert Beaser.]

Monte Jaffe:   This is my first, and I’ll be coming back in the cold wintery month of December to do Colline in La Bohème, which I look forward to. I love it here. I’m having a wonderful time. It’s a wonderful group. They’ve a very courageous company. They have had to wedge their way into the situation, and now they’re established and respected, and I admire them very much for that. It’s not the easiest thing in the world to start an opera company!

BD:   Will the Bohème be in English or in Italian?

Jaffe:   In Italian.

BD:   But Cinderella is in English?

Jaffe:   The Cinderella is in English.

BD:   Do you prefer working in English, or would you rather sing things in the original language?

Jaffe:   There are pros and cons. If you know the Italian, often the words are very beautiful and they’re very singable. But if you don’t know the Italian, as beautiful and singable as they are, the audience doesn’t understand what you’re saying, so you’re bound to lose a lot, particularly if it is a comedy, as Cinderella is. You need to have information for the audience.

BD:   So sentiment might not come across, but slap-stick would?

Jaffe:   Yes. Sentiment doesn’t fully come across. There are phrases in Italian which have special meaning. I was talking with the gentleman who does Dandini, George Massey, about an experience he had with Madame Butterfly. When the baritone comes into the room, and says (in a literal translation), “Where is the love-nest?”, the words they used in this production were, “Where is the bed?”

BD:   It sheds a whole different light on it.

Jaffe:   Right. A bed’s a bed, and a love-nest is a love-nest! Hopefully the twain shall meet, but... There are many things that are very beautiful which are lost, and there are many things that are gained because the audience understands.

BD:   [To Lerner] Do you like performing in English?

Lerner:   It depends on the opera. I’ve done translations of serious works, such as Carmen in English. That’s very difficult to do because sometimes the translations are not quite right, and sometimes they’re comic when they don’t mean to be, and that turns people off. On the other hand, doing Rossini in English seems to be the only way because it makes the operas much more accessible, especially when you have a cast that tries very hard to use their diction, as we have been here.
lerner

BD:   Are the words coming across?

Lerner:   I really hope so. I think they are. We have been working towards that end, and in a comedy like this it ought to be in English. It’s more fun if you understand what’s going on.

BD:   But not so much for a sentimental drama?

Lerner:   No, not so much for serious works. I have done Wagner in English in Chautauqua. We did a Meistersinger, and that was very difficult.

Jaffe:   I wouldn’t want to do Wagner in English. I did my first Wotan last fall in German, in a concert in Carnegie Hall with the National Orchestra Association, which was very thrilling. I haven’t done it in English, so I can’t say from empirical knowledge, but I suspect I would sooner do that in German. There’s something visceral about the language, when it’s well composed, that fits the music.

Lerner:   Especially in that case where the music and the words come so close together. [The recital program at left included the photo of Lerner shown at the top of this webpage.]

BD:   Now, you’re singing roles like Wotan and Don Magnifico. Do you bill yourself as a baritone or a bass, or a bass-baritone?

Jaffe:   [Laughs] I’m a bass-baritone. I have the top, but I also do Sarastro [Magic Flute], and Osmin [Seraglio].

BD:   You do have a low F?

Jaffe:   I do have a low F, but, as a matter of fact, Wotan has a low F. It has a lot of low notes, and also a lot of high notes in it. The Lord only made us one at a time, so we have to do both! [Laughs]

BD:   Coming back to Cinderella, this is an opera by Rossini. Do you feel the public is going to accept this version, as opposed to the cartoon?

Lerner:   I think so. The differences are not so drastic. There are only two little changes. Instead of an evil step-mother, Don Magnifico is the bad step-father. Then there is a bracelet instead of the glass slipper. Otherwise, it’s pretty much the same. It’s still got the wonderful magic quality that Cinderella has in every story. Rossini has kept that in the opera, so I don’t see why it would be difficult. As a matter of fact, they might be more interested just to see it from a little different point of view.

BD:   Do you find yourself influenced by the cartoon at all?

Lerner:   No I don’t, because for me, Cinderella is a very real person. This may sound funny discussing her character this way because it is a fairytale, but I see her as a real person who’s gone through many trials and tribulations. Both the Prince and I play characters which are true to life.

BD:   Do you think that Cinderella would have voted for the Equal Rights Amendment?

Lerner:   This one might have! [All laugh] She’s got a little strength there hidden somewhere.

BD:   Is she in control of her situation, rather than being manipulated by others?

Jaffe:   No, she is manipulated, but within the framework of her life, she has hope and strength. She’s a good person.

BD:   Does Don Magnifico see her as a good person?

Jaffe:   Don Magnifico has trouble seeing a lot of things. [All laugh] I wouldn’t go by his eyesight in regard to the goodness of this lovely Cinderella person. To begin with, you mentioned something about character. Is a character important in a comedy? In any drama, what makes theater is character, and she has a very human character. Don Magnifico also has a very human character. He’s in a lot of trouble because he’s been manipulating funds. He could be put in jail, and you may laugh but he’s a crook. So, the circumstances are funny. The way it’s treated is charged in the way that comedy is charged, but the circumstances are very human, and that’s what make people laugh. They are glad he’s in trouble! [Much laughter] The fact that it’s a comedy in no way affects the fact that it’s human. In fact, it makes it even more human.

BD:   Are all the other characters human?

Lerner:   In their own way, sure, and they’re all distinct. That’s very interesting, too, as they are in most operas. Everyone’s got their own turn of personality, and they are clear-cut kinds of people, so when they react with one another, it makes it dramatically... how shall I say?

Jaffe:   Charged?

Lerner:   Yes.
cahn

BD:   You two seem to have a lot of fun together. Do you have as much fun on the stage?

Lerner:   He’s very nasty on the stage, not at all like he really is.

BD:   But you forgive him?

Lerner:   Absolutely! [Laughter] I don’t envy him.

Jaffe:   It’s hard for me to be nasty, but I do it! [More laughter]

BD:   There was a magazine article talking about the new recording of Tosca, and Sherill Milnes was saying that he had to be so nasty to Luciano Pavarotti and Mirella Freni that he wound up apologizing to them after the session. Do you apologize to her at all?

Jaffe:   No, I haven’t apologized... perhaps I should. [To Lerner] “I’m awfully sorry!” [She laughs]

BD:   But you’ll do it again at the next performance!

Jaffe:   [Sadly] Yes, I’ll do it again. [Much laughter all round!]

Lerner:   [Patting his arm across the table] I’ll understand, and I’ll forgive you. [Laughter continues]

* * * * *

BD:   How do you like singing in Cahn Auditorium [shown at right]? Is it a good theater?

Lerner:   It’s kind of dry for my taste. We were rehearsing in a space that was a little more live, so making the transition was a bit of a trip up, and I had to get used to it. It’s a nice intimate kind of place. I like that size theater. I don’t like too much to sing in a big house. I’ve done that, and it’s not quite the same as being able to see everyone, and relate more closely to the audience.

BD:   This is a role for a coloratura mezzo?

Lerner:   Yes. I’ve been doing that Fach [vocal category] seriously for the last year, although when you were talking to Monte about doing Wagner and Don Magnifico, I was thinking to myself how wonderful to be in a place where you can sing both of those, and people don’t put you in a cubby hole. I’m a mezzo coloratura, but I don’t just do The Barber of Seville and Cenerentola, and that’s all.

BD:   But they won’t hire you for Fricka [Rheingold and Walküre]?

Lerner:   Right, or Carmen, or Werther. That doesn’t happen anymore, and that’s terrific and wonderful.

Jaffe:   As a matter of fact, if I’m not mistaken, Ezio Flagello, the great bass at the Met did a Cenerentola and also Wotan. He’s the only person I can think of who did both of those. But I agree with you. It’s one of the strong points of American opera that we haven’t been categorized so much. You learn a lot from doing different kinds of roles and using different tessituras with different vocal demands. It makes the whole experience richer.

BD:   We’ve been talking about traditional operas. Tell me about your feeling on contemporary opera. Do you enjoy doing them?

Jaffe:   I’ve done a lot of Britten, which I assume you would call modern opera. I did Death in Venice at the Metropolitan Opera when it was premiered, and I’ve done other Britten. I’ve also done Carlisle Floyd’s Susannah. I have never done Berg, and I would love to do Wozzeck, or Dr. Schön [Lulu].  That’s what we’re stretching toward, the wonderful combination of the dramatic and the musical. [Vis-à-vis the recording shown below-left, where Jaffe sings Dr. Schön, see my interview with Constance Hauman.]

BD:   We keep coming back to that, the drama and the music.

Jaffe:   Exactly!

Lerner:   That’s something that we talk about all the time, and a lot of my experience as a watcher of opera has been that you don’t find those two coming together often enough.
lulu

Jaffe:   Yes.

Lerner:   What opera singers want to do now, and are looking to do, is to make every experience a dramatic experience, so that the music lives more fully. Even in a work like Cenerentola, which some people might say is fluff, and not take seriously, the characters have to be true and real. Otherwise, the audience doesn’t really accept them. I do take it seriously, both Rossini as well as Wozzeck. I’ve sung Marie... not all of it, just done big chunks, and it was incredible, a bone-shaking, earth-shaking experience for me. I’ve done a lot of Menotti. I don’t know why I did it, but I sang Baba in The Medium, which was also an incredible experience. The set was up for a week before we opened, and when I walked into the theater, I felt that I was going into my little house. I’d open the door to the set, and it was a little strange, because after a while I thought I have to get out of this. I have to leave this house and become myself again. It was that strong. But it brings you back to what opera should be, to do the modern works because there you’re asked to act. The vocal demands are greater in a certain sense, but on top of that your characterization has to be very clear and clean, and the dramatic part has to be worked out very minutely and strongly.

BD:   Is this the kind of advice you would give a living composer if they were writing an opera in which you were going to appear?

Lerner:   Oh, absolutely. The character has to be really strong. But that happens in most of the work that I do. That’s the way I approach it, and the fun thing about doing Rossini is that, although the character is real, then on top of that you get to play with the coloratura, and play with the music. That’s always a pleasure.

BD:   How about the embellishments in this particular production? Are they your own, or are they the ones that are in the score?

Lerner:   Our conductor, Richard Boldrey, was very open about allowing us to come with our own embellishments. At the same time, he’d done a lot of research into what the original demands were of the singers, and then in the end we chose what suited us vocally. So there are embellishments that he suggested, and we’d use them and, from there are embellishments that I have written which suit my voice, that another mezzo may not want to use.

BD:   Then you become Cenerentola?

Lerner:   I hope! [Laughter]

BD:   I keep calling it Cenerentola, but it’s Cinderella because you will be performing it in English.

Lerner:   Yes.

* * * * *

BD: [After giving the dates and times of the performances for the radio audience, we continue our discussion.] Where’s opera going today?

Lerner:   [Gasps] What a question!

Jaffe:   A good question! The fact that it is going in America is the first thing to say. In the last five or ten years, opera has double or even tripled. One of the exciting things about opera for me is that it’s big, whether it’s your old war horse Traviata or a brand-new production of something that has just been written. It’s big!

BD:   Do you mean big business?

Jaffe:   No, I mean big sound, big emotions, big humanity.

BD:   What if they want to do it a very tiny theater?

Jaffe:   It can be intimate. Aïda is very intimate. Think of the love duet. If it’s done in a very small theater, that’s still big in the sense that the human charges are big. The sense of excitement and the drama are big. [Pauses a moment] Although, many operas are becoming like Menotti’s The Telephone.

Lerner:   All of the Menotti operas are possible to be done in a small theater. I’ve done them in small theaters, as well as other works. We’ve done a Così Fan Tutte in Pittsburgh with minimal sets and a very small orchestra, and it was very successful. We did it in English, so it was very accessible. Coming back to your question, it’s terribly exciting what’s happening with opera in America. I’ve just sung at [New York] City Opera, and I’m a personal testament to where opera is going. Beverly Sills [General Manager of the company [1979-89] after completing her singing career] said that she wanted to use American singers, and she’s gone ahead and hired American singers. She wants City Opera to be a showplace for American singers, so that everything that happens there can stream out across the country. That’s really her desire, and it’s happening more and more. A year ago at this time, I was sitting mulling over what to do. Should I go to Europe? Should I try to get a contract in Germany and train there, or stay in America? I discussed it with her, and she really feels that American singers can make careers here. I’m not saying that it is always possible, but it’s getting more and more possible that people can stay at home and sing. Everyone wants to hear opera more.

BD:   So, you think the public is coming along?

Lerner:   Oh yes, I do.

Jaffe:   I remember my first tour that I did several years ago, was an opera company called The Turnau Opera.

The Turnau Opera seems to have been “rounded up” by Sally Turnau, wife of Joseph Turnau, who as professor of music at Hunter College had become one of The Driving Forces in American opera. It remains more than acceptable to assume that Turnau, himself, made several early decisions concerning The Turnau Opera Players (as they were formerly known) especially at the audition level. Professor Turnau was explicit: European works on these shores must be translated superbly and performed masterfully in English. He also became one of the pioneers to insist that gifted “singers of color” study at top levels, preparing them to compete in perhaps the most exclusively Caucasian artform in the western world. Sally carried her husband’s cachet and extended an invitation to Barbara Owens to become stage director. Owens had studied with Joseph Turnau and shared his ideals. Then — of course — there were the singers. Many were young talent performing small roles in the New York City Opera, invited by the Turnaus to audition and, with luck, join this John Paul Jones of opera in a painter’s town in the Catskills, here to unleash their lungs and spread soon-to-be-strong wings.

In 1958, George Shirley, a young man destined to be the first black tenor to perform at the Metropolitan Opera three short years later (1961), had never appeared on an operatic stage...

[From an article by Tad Wise in Hudson Valley One, September 2012]

[Continuing] We were driving in an upper part of Maine to do La Traviata in English. As we were driving along, there were cows, there were trees, there were fields, there were birds, but not a person in sight. I was wondering who the devil is going to come and see this opera, and what are they going think when they get there? [Laughs] Well, they showed up! There were a thousand people, and they loved it. The essential phenomenon is that the American people love big sweeping ideas in theater. They love love, and they love passion. It’s something they relate to. It’s become an American art-form.

BD:   They can get caught up into it?

Jaffe:   They can identify with it, and that’s essentially what opera is, and I feel it’s particularly important. People often say it’s a dated art-form, and one of the things that people are looking for is something that is charged and passionate. Many of our institutions, our religions, and our political ideas have come into question, and people are asking, “What can I just love? What can I find to really become excited about?” Opera, and the arts in general can be one of the answers.

BD:   We need heroes again.

Jaffe:   We need real flesh and blood passionate people in our lives, not symbols.

Lerner:   Something else that has also helped in the last five or ten years is the great growth in presenting opera to children. The idea has come to fruition, where the kids that were introduced to opera, five or ten years ago in the classroom have become the audience for the regional companies that are blossoming. I was involved in a terrific program in Pittsburgh that brought shortened versions of operas to junior high school and high school, and even elementary school kids. They were forty-five minutes, with talking and explanation, but the main arias and ensembles were presented as they should be sung. That’s happened all over the country, and when kids are exposed at that early age, they begin to see how wonderful it is to be able to connect with the emotions on the stage. We are beginning to see the result, and now they want more. I think that’s terrific. I hope that it keeps going in this direction. Monte was talking about bigness, and that’s part of the trouble for me. In the old styles of opera it had to be big, and it had to be bombastic. It had to be THE biggest orchestra with THE biggest names. Yes, there are places for the biggest and the best, like the Metropolitan and the Chicago Lyric, but there are also places for the regional company that presents the opera in English for the kids to come to.

BD:   Are recordings and radio and television helping?

Lerner:   Yes. The Metropolitan and the Lyric broadcasts of this past season were really wonderful experiences. I saw the Faust in Pittsburgh, and my son watched it with me. It was terrific! There are places for the big, and there are places for the other. That’s what’s so nice about it. You can do opera in a small theater with minimal sets and a small orchestra, and that’s okay, too. There are all kinds of people with all kinds of needs, and you should be able to cater to everyone’s needs. If you just keep opera for one segment of society, and make it inaccessible to the others, then for sure it will die.
jaffe

BD:   So, opera is going in all directions?

Lerner:   Yes it is, and that’s wonderful!

Jaffe:   We’re looking for an American artform in opera. There’s no rush about it, or at least I don’t feel any rush about it, but we’re looking for it. Carlisle Floyd or Thomas Pasatieri are American opera composers, and Menotti, of course. They seem to be looking to find something that’s relevant. It’s hard to get away from the European influence, and I’m not even sure it’s necessary. Rather than getting away from Europe, the world is getting to be one big country.

BD:   A global village?

Jaffe:   Yes! We don’t really have to go around singing Yankee Doodle. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it’s not our only option. It’s also not our only option to go into disco opera, or electronic opera.

BD:   Where does musical comedy fit into all of this?

Lerner:   I want to be very open about music in general, and I would hope that an audience can be accepting of many kinds of forms. As a performer I’ve done musical theater. I’ve done Jacques Brel, and I’ve done pop stuff. I can’t say I’ve ever done rock at all...

BD:   If we had been living in the forties, might you have been a big band singer?

Lerner:   Yes. I love Gershwin and Cole Porter. I sing that material, and for me to be able to sing it is a great pleasure. I would hope that an audience can be accepting of more than one artform. Why does someone have to only be an opera lover, and not enjoy My Fair Lady, or any of the other American classics?

BD:   They are classics, aren’t they? [Vis-à-vis the biography shown at left, see my interview with Aribert Reimann.]

Lerner:   They are classics, and they’re our artform. I would hope my son is exposed to all of this. I’m a little concerned that he likes rock [laughs], but actually I’m not because, at the same time, he goes to all the operas I do, and he goes to the Symphony.

BD:   How old is your son?

Lerner:   He’s nine.

BD:   Does he enjoy the works that you do?

Lerner:   Yes, he loves them, and he goes to the Symphony rehearsals with his daddy, who’s a flutist. So he’s been exposed to all aspects of music, and he accepts all those aspects. I’m constantly amazed that kids can accept mostly everything. There’s no restriction, so why can’t they grow up into adulthood and accept most everything? Maybe that’s kind of idealistic or unrealistic...

BD:   What would you tell him if all of a sudden he wanted to be a performer like mommy or daddy?

Lerner:   Oh, boy! [Stifled laughter] I don’t really know. It’s a crazy life, but I would tell him to do what makes him happy.

BD:   Do you enjoy being a performer? Do you like the rigors of performing life?

Lerner:   I love singing, and I love performing, but I hate the travel. I don’t like being away from my family. I don’t like being away from my house, and my garden, and my own little place in the world. But I have to make a balance of my life. I couldn’t sing and do opera in this society unless I travel, so I’ve made the adjustments. I have a very understanding husband, and a very understanding son who comes along sometimes. That makes it fun.

BD:   [To Jaffe] Do the rigors of performing life get you down too much?

Jaffe:   No, I love them. I love to travel, and I love the life of the theater.

BD:   Do you miss the family life? Have you got a wife and children?

Jaffe:   I’ve had several wives [laughs], but I’ve had no children.

BD:   How did your wives put up with someone who is going to sing here for a couple of weeks, and there for a couple of weeks... Figaro here, Figaro there, Figaro up, Figaro down?

Jaffe:   Only they can answer that. Let me give you a few phone numbers... [Much laughter] There’s a great deal of difficulty, but you have to be together as much as you can. On the other hand, it’s often good to be apart for a couple of weeks. I don’t find that necessarily a negative influence. In fact, I find it a very positive influence. You miss each other all the more. You forget all the things that you don’t like about each other. A couple of weeks later you remember all those things, and by then you’re off on another job. So it’s a great family situation.

BD:   It’s almost like being a long-haul truck driver.

Jaffe:   I’ve been referred to as something along that line! [Much laughter]

BD:   How about the actual performing? Do you enjoy that?

Jaffe:   I love it! I love to perform! It’s exciting, and that’s why I’m involved in it.

BD:   Do you read the critics?

Jaffe:   Sure. Why not?

Lerner:   Yes, I do too. [All laugh] When I read them, I think to myself that I shouldn’t believe anything that’s there, and, of course, I tend to believe all the good things, knowing all the time that it doesn’t make any difference to the way I approach my artistry.

Jaffe:   We give critics a rough time. Some critics obviously are stupid, and some critics obviously are intelligent. They have opinions which they have every right to have. The issue to keep in mind is that a critic has a point of view, and the audience can either agree with it or not. The fault that often occurs is that the audience sometimes asks the critic how they should feel about the work...

Lerner:   ...and they accept the criticism without reservation, and without going to find out for themselves.

Jaffe:   I’ve been in operas which I thought were horrible, and in the previews, prior to opening night, the audience would come and wonder what the hell was going on. I won’t go into detail, but in this particular instance the critics came and they loved it! From that night on, all the audiences came, and before they even saw the first part, they loved it!

BD:   So, you don’t feel the critic should lead opinion?

Jaffe:   Of course not! People should make up their own minds. People have to take responsibility for their opinions.

Lerner:   I know what you’re saying, and I agree with you, but when something is in print, there’s something about the printed word. It’s not quite the same as listening to someone talk. You see it in black and white, and there’s a certain firmness, or truth to what you see.

BD:   Plus, you can read it again.

Lerner:   Yes, and again, and again, and again, whether it’s true or not. That’s the problem with printed criticisms. People tend to take the printed word as true, instead of maybe reading it for information, and then going on to see the show on their own.

Jaffe:   But the critic can’t be blamed for that.

BD:   What if the reviews come out after the show has closed? Does that alter opinion of the public, or the purpose of the critics?

Jaffe:   That would be interesting. Part of the function of the critic is publicity, so the critic is saying this is a good show to see, or it’s not a good show. Then the audience will read that, and perhaps come to the show, or, if it’s a negative review, read it and not come. That’s part of the gamble. But the point is that the audience needs to feel they’re important, and their feelings about it are important.

BD:   What about a subscription audience, where you’ve bought your season tickets in advance, and you have tickets to each of the operas?

Jaffe:   That’s a splendid idea, because one of the things that’s very important in the theater is to have the courage to take chances. In a situation like opera, all the shows are hits.

BD:   [Genuinely surprised] Oh, really???

Jaffe:   Yes. Puccini didn’t really write a bad opera. Nobody’s going to say the show is not good. They can say the singers are not good, or the production is terrible, but it’s not like a new Broadway show.

Lerner:   Also, there is the idea now of operas being done again that haven’t been done in a long time, such as La Clemenza di Tito. We just did it last fall at City Opera. It hadn’t been done for many years, and people came to see this Mozart work with many questions. It was a great gamble to do it. The Silver Lake is another one which was included with all the Kurt Weill that’s been happening. The companies are taking chances now, and there are great questions about success. Whether they are hits or not, people do take chances when buying tickets.

Jaffe:   Yes, but I was referring to the operas that are generally done. I agree with you that there are many operas that should be brought forth on the remote possibility that they might be important. The Marriage of Figaro was brought back to the Met in the time of Ezio Pinza, and, if I recall correctly, the critics didn’t like it. But the audience liked the show, and they forced it to be kept in the repertoire. It’s important for the integrity of the theater to not always have big successes, meaning money-making successes. If opera, or any form of theater is relegated to be a guaranteed financial success, we stand the danger of becoming impotent like any other toothpaste! That would be death. I would get out of opera and go into camping, or become a trapper.
mozart

BD:   [To Lerner] If you weren’t an opera singer, what would you be doing?

Lerner:   I started out as a teacher, so I might be teaching music again.

BD:   But that’s still really in the field. Suppose there wasn’t any music?

Lerner:   Oh, I can’t see life without it. Really, I can’t. The question is the only other thing I could consider being is a farmer [laughs] and that’s so far-fetched. For me, it’s either music or gardening! [Much laughter] I can’t quite see anything in between. I don’t think I could be anything but someone having to do something in music. That’s a hard thought...

BD:   I saw a cartoon the other day... It showed a barren wasteland, and the caption read Life Without Mozart [shown at right].

Jaffe:   Great, great, great! [Laughter]

* * * * *

BD:   What about recordings? Are they good, or are they bad?

Lerner:   That’s a big question. My initial gut reaction is that there are too many. [Laughs] It seems like everyone is recording everything.

BD:   Would you feel there were too many recordings if Columbia, or RCA, or Deutsche Grammophon asked you to record one of the over-done works?

Jaffe:   There’s room for one more! [More laughter] That’s an interesting question. If they asked me to record it, I guess I’d say there aren’t enough. But when I sit back and look at reams and reams of stuff that’s recorded, it’s very confusing.

BD:   Do you feel there should be one or two recordings of every opera, and let it go at that?

Lerner:   No, not really. People who feel that they have a new idea, or a new way to express themselves or the music, should be given a chance to do so. Then it’s up to us poor folks who buy the records to make the choices. That’s the tough thing about having so many, many recordings, and then knowing what to choose. That’s the problem.

BD:   Is one of the roles of the critic to help you? If you find you like a certain critic, and he says this is a good recording, you might like this recording?

Lerner:   Yes, that is a good role for a critic, actually. If someone is patient enough and comfortable enough to read many critics, and then find someone whose opinion he values, then that’s a nice way to deal with lots of material.

Jaffe:   I feel that recordings are exciting. I would like to see many operas recorded. I get a little bit bored when I see basically the same artists doing a range of parts which go perhaps beyond what I feel they ought to be getting into.

Lerner:   That’s a very interesting point, the idea that someone would record a role that they would not sing in public. That’s what I object to.

Jaffe:   Some become a commodity, where they become famous and they make money, and sing what they like. There’s even discussion of some artists singing roles in different keys because they want to sing the particular role even though it’s not appropriate for their voice.

BD:   Are you happy with the roles you’re singing? Being a bass-baritone, are you unhappy that you can’t sing romantic lovers?

Jaffe:   [Laughs] No! I want to sing many roles, really all the dramatic ones. I want to sing Otello very much. One of the things that I envy in Shakespearian actors is that one night they can do Othello, and the next night they can do Iago. I have to accept many things in life, and that’s one of them, but I don’t accept them without grumbling! [More laughter]
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BD:   [To Mimi] Do you like the roles you’re singing? You’re a coloratura mezzo, which is a different kind of voice-type.

Lerner:   It is, but on the other hand, I can do such a large range. There are roles that I love... I’d love to sing Mimì. It’s a beautiful, wonderful part, but I have the pleasure of singing a great range of roles right now. I sing coloratura things, but I also sing serious romantic parts that are very far from Cinderella.

BD:   I assume you’re not going to sing Lucia or La Traviata.

Lerner:   No, and that’s okay.

BD:   What if someone asked you to sing Lucia?

Lerner:   I’ve tried it, but I wouldn’t do it. It’s just not for me.

BD:   It’s nice that you have the courage to say no.

Lerner:   I have said no to some very meaty and wonderful parts, as a matter of fact, and that took all the courage I had, because I wanted very much to sing them. One part in particular was Giovanna [Jane Seymour] in Anna Bolena. I’m just not ready for it. I was offered it, and I had to take my courage in my hands, and say, “Thank you, but I can’t.” So I’m singing another role in the opera, Smeton, which is fine and is more suited to me.

BD:   Where is this being done?

Lerner:   City Opera. If I want to sing something dramatic, I’ll sing Adalgisa in Norma. There are so many things that I can do that I’m happy to be able to do.

BD:   What advice do you have for younger singers?

Lerner:   Oooh... do as much as you can. That’s the biggest idea. Get as much experience and exposure as possible.

BD:   Even if it’s the wrong roles?

Lerner:   It depends on where you do them. I’ve done a lot of roles that I wouldn’t do again. [Much laughter]

Jaffe:   That’s one way to find out. [More laughter] But don’t do it in such a way that you’ll hurt yourself.

Lerner:   No, you have to be a good judge. But the only way to know your craft is to not only listen to the people that you respect, and the people who have made it, or who know what they’re doing, but also just to try it and do it. Perform, perform, perform, perform as much as you can.

Jaffe:   I strongly feel that it’s important to have a good acting background.

Lerner:   Oh, yes.

Jaffe:   By this I mean an acting background in straight drama, not ‘operatic acting’, because some of that is a little bit ludicrous. But it depends on whom you are studying with. One should get a real basic Stanislavsky concept of what acting is, because very much opera works out of a situation, and that’s essentially what acting deals with. It’s a craft that requires great skill and great study. One of the misconceptions that movies give the American young actor is that if you have an interesting personality, and you do odd things — like sky-dive, or comb your hair funny, or surf, or have a funny speech pattern — you’ll become famous. If you’re going to become a serious theater person, it’s very important to have a good idea of the craft of acting, as well as singing. And you must be patient. That’s the hardest thing.

BD:   Waiting for the break?

Jaffe:   Waiting for a lot of things.

BD:   Waiting for your voice to grow up?

Jaffe:   Yes, particularly lower voices. There are kids that come out smoking cigars and singing bass, but it usually takes a little while.

Lerner:   Yes, it takes a while to get settled.

Jaffe:   It’s a biological phenomenon.

BD:   Then will your careers perhaps last a little longer?

Jaffe:   They tend to. We basses and mezzos sing into our fifties and sixties, and in some cases, beyond that. A few months ago I heard Boris Christoff in Carnegie Hall. It was a joy. He sang, among other things, ‘The Death Scene’ from Boris Godunov. I was up in the balcony, and they had an orchestra and chorus on the stage. He didn’t move. He didn’t fall down the stairs. He didn’t have a million dollars-worth of scenery, but I was so moved by his powerful performance, his beautiful voice, and his profound acting with the voice which had so much presence. It was a master at work, and a joy to see. I’ll never forget it.

* * * * *

BD:   I asked you about advice to young singers. Do you have any advice for old singers?

Jaffe:   Yes, advise me! [Much laughter]

BD:   Do you go to performances to learn?

Lerner:   Oh, all the time. That’s one of the pleasures of being at City Opera. It’s exciting to be there anyway, but the pleasure was that I could sign-in and go to any performance I wanted to. I could sit at the back of the house and watch, and that’s what I did. The whole time I was there for rehearsal, three weeks or so, every opportunity I had when I was not rehearsing my own show I would be in the house, or at another rehearsal watching and learning all the time. As a matter of fact, before I decided to be a solo singer, I was in the Pittsburgh Opera for three years as a chorister just for that purpose, to be involved in opera and be able to watch people working. I found that incredibly interesting.

Jaffe:   Yes. The professional people who have been at it a while have a great deal to offer. There is no substitute for it.

BD:   It’s just their experience?

Jaffe:   It’s experience, and it’s as a craft person, someone who just knows how to do it. If they have a great voice, or even if they don’t have a great voice, these people have been around. They have a knowledge, and it’s wonderful to watch.

Lerner:   I was also very gutsy in those three years I was there. If there were people who seemed accessible at all, I would ask questions. I thought that if I bug them enough, they’ll tell me that they are busy or tired. I hoped I wasn’t annoying, but if there was something that I was curious about, I would just ask how they felt about this, or how do you do that trill, and a lot of the times they would tell me! I found that terrifically exciting that they would take two minutes and let me know.

BD:   Is this something you will pass on?

Lerner:   Absolutely, and I feel very open to anyone who asks me, because people were open with me when I was learning.

Jaffe:   Yes. That’s one of the beautiful things that can happen. You asked about how we like being in opera. One of the things that I love being in opera is the people. They are wonderful, generous, and down-to-earth. A lot of the PR represents an entirely wrong idea, that they are eccentric, etc. That’s for PR! They are really big-hearted people. My teacher is Giorgio Tozzi, and I worked with him. I just saw him recently on Broadway. He did The Most Happy Fella, and he was fantastic. He’s singing all over the place, and he’s singing beautifully. He is an enormously generous person. When I studied with him, the lesson would go on, and on, and on. It would be informal, and it would be rich. I have also worked with, or discussed vocal ideas with Louis Quilico who was also enormously generous.
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BD:   You studied with Tozzi, who is a bass. Do you feel it is best, or very advantageous, to study with someone in your own range?

Jaffe:   I would tend to say definitely. The reservation is that a teacher has to have several ingredients. One is certainly a knowledge about the specific voice that you have. That is very important, and this was very abundant with Tozzi. He was an enormous person, and you can learn a great deal about singing just from that. I used to go out to his home in Montclair, New Jersey. Now he's moved to California, and his living room is like a big tennis court. It has a great big adobe ceiling. You just couldn’t sing badly in a place like that, and you couldn’t sing badly around a person like that. If it was wrong, it was wonderfully wrong, [laughs] and that’s important. The teacher has to have that quality. I don’t want to get into mysticism, but he has to know specifically how to handle a voice, and it certainly is great if it’s a voice of your kind.

BD: [To the mezzo] Do you feel the same?

Lerner:   I study with a soprano, Ellen Faull in New York, and I have for the last three or four years. So, from my point of view, she’s helped me become a singer. I know that she works with mezzos, and she works with men, too. There’s a philosophy about singing generally, and also knowledge of the specific things that she talks about that work, and these things work for mezzos. She’s got a fantastic ear, and she can visualize what’s going on physically inside. That’s one thing other teachers need. But above and beyond that, they need to be able to tell you how to fix what isn’t working. Not all of the teachers can hear very well, and can tell you what’s wrong, or give you a way to fix those things. There are also a lot of charlatans out there. [Much laughter]

BD:   [Sympathetically] Are they really charlatans, or are they people who have had big careers, and perhaps think they can teach, and are simply unable to?

Jaffe:   That depends on your definition of charlatan! [More laughter]

Lerner:   There are some of each category. There are people who really know that there are singers out in the world who need to know how to sing, and are desperately looking for someone to teach them. They then take advantage of those people. However, there are those who really don’t know how to teach, but have sung themselves. They can’t tell a student how to do it, because that’s a different situation. On top of that, you have to find someone who can teach technique, and who speaks your language. I’ve known very fine teachers who haven’t clicked personality-wise with their students, and so although they can teach, they just can’t teach that person.

Jaffe: Right!

BD:   I assume you couldn’t work with a very square person?

Jaffe:   I’d rather not. I have an astringent side to me...

Lerner:   I haven’t seen that yet...

Jaffe:   ...and hopefully you won’t! [More laughter] This character doesn’t call for it. But it’s not just a question of being full of energy. If someone is very sparing in their comments, but those comments are charged and accurate and meaningful, that will suit me fine. I don’t go to be entertained. I go to deal with an issue, which is very important, and I have to sense a clear understanding.

BD:   Will you both continue to work with teachers as long as you are in the career?

Lerner:   Absolutely, absolutely!

Jaffe:   Yes.

Lerner:   I find it’s really important. I’m learning all the time, and I hope I never stop. I hope I always grow.

Jaffe:   The voice is like wine. It either gets better or it gets worse. It doesn’t stay in one place. It always has to grow.

BD:   Just as you as a person are always growing.

Jaffe:   That’s right.

* * * * *

BD:   [To Lerner] Where do you go from here?

Lerner:   I go to be with my family. My husband is in the Pittsburgh Symphony, so we will be there for the summer. I’ll be working on the roles for next year at City Opera. I’m doing Anna Bolena, and Julius Caesar, and Cinderella in a different translation!

BD:   Oh, dear!

Jaffe:   Oh no, really?

Lerner:   It will be in English, but in a whole other translation. That’s going to be an adventure. I’ve never yet had to learn two translations of the same work.

BD:   Have you done works in the original and in translation?

Jaffe:   Yes, but never in two different English versions. That’s going to be a first.

BD:   [To Jaffe] Where do you go from here?

Jaffe:   I go back to New York for a couple of weeks, and then I go to Milwaukee to do Colline with Opera Under The Stars. Then I go to Germany doing some Wagner. Then I’ll be back here in December with Opera Midwest, again doing Colline, both times in Italian, as a matter of fact. Then in the spring, I’ll be going with the Chattanooga Opera for Don Basilio [Barber of Seville].

BD: Opera Midwest did a couple of performances of the Paisiello version of The Barber of Seville in a different auditorium. I’m glad that you’re in Cahn Auditorium because it’s a more traditional theater with a stage and a pit. They did one opera in Pick-Staiger Concert Hall, and put the orchestra off to the side. I saw the dress rehearsal, and I thought it worked very well. I don’t know whether the public really like it or not, but the critics hated it. But the last couple of productions have been very well received. A couple of days ago I went to the Hinsdale Opera where they did Mary, Queen of Scots.
jaffe

Lerner:   Did you enjoy it?

BD:   Very much.

Jaffe:   Was it a good production?

BD:   Very good! It was strong, well-done, and the voices came through. It’s a wonderful opera. On the way out, a friend of mine was saying they should take it downtown and run it for a month! It’s very adventurous to get a crowd in Hinsdale to come to an opera by Thea Musgrave.

Jaffe:   Some of us were going to go and see it, but I got the flu and ended up in the hospital.

Lerner:   He was really ill.

Jaffe:   I’m awfully sorry to have missed that.

BD:   Speaking of illnesses, what do you do if the management says someone can’t sing tonight, and asks you to step in?

Jaffe:   I’ve done that.

BD:   Do you find that rewarding at all, or is it just a nuisance?

Jaffe:   Oh, it’s very exciting.

Lerner: I was doing a Dorabella in Così Fan Tutte on tour, and the Despina got sick, so I sang Despina. I had a cover and she didn’t. I was learning the role because I thought it was a great adventure. It was fun, and she’s a terrific character.

BD:   Did you find yourself singing the wrong cues or some wrong entries?

Lerner:   No I didn’t, because once I got the costume on, and my mind was on the right track, I was okay. It was a real adventure. [Much laughter]

BD:   Did you rely on the prompter?

Lerner:   No. I never have.

Jaffe:   When I did that Death in Venice at the Met, it’s their standard procedure to use a prompter. That is the most annoying thing. I wanted to say, “Shut up down there!”

BD:   To me, it sounds as if it’s very confusing.

Jaffe:   Doing this work by Britten was already confusing! I was singing several parts, including one of the boatmen. There are several places which are almost like little television scenes, and there was a musical cue I had that came out of nowhere. It wasn’t a related key or anything. I remember being off stage, and as I walked on I didn’t know where the note was. But I sang it correctly every performance. I just knew that when I got out there it would come to me, and it did every single time, even though the prompter was very distracting.

BD:   You didn’t have a guy with a pitch-pipe before you went on?

Jaffe:   It wouldn’t have helped, because up to that moment they were in three other different keys altogether.

Lerner:   I would find it very confusing to have someone whispering the cue beforehand. I’ve never used the prompter, and I don’t know what I’ll do if I ever have to. There are some houses that have them all the time.

Jaffe:   You have to develop the technique to ignore them, and at the same time, if you lose your line, you’ll be happy to have somebody give it to you.

BD:   As I understand it, in a spoken play, the prompter waits, and if they see you looking down at them, they give the line, but they don’t give everything.

Lerner:   Yes, but in opera, the prompters rehearse and give everybody a cue all the time, instead of waiting for the needy ones.

Jaffe:   They give every single line just before it’s sung. In fact, you can hear it on the radio. As a matter of fact, a very close friend of mine, Joan Dornemann, is a prompter at the Met, and she gives everything all the time.

BD:   [With a wink] She’s not an ex-wife, is she?

Jaffe:   No, no, no, no, not Joan! [Much laughter]

BD:   I wish you both much success in this Cinderella.

Jaffe:   Thank you.

Lerner:   I hope you enjoy the show.

Jaffe:   This is going to be great fun for everybody who comes.

See my interviews with Samuel Ramey, Marilyn Horne, Frederica von Stade, Deborah Voigt, Chris Merritt,
Kathleen Kuhlmann, Thomas Hampson, Rockwell Blake, Sir Roger Norrington, and Philip Gossett

This conversation was recorded in Chicago on June 23, 1980. Portions were broadcast on WNIB the following evening. This transcription was made in 2024, and posted on this website at that time. My thanks to British soprano Una Barry for her help in preparing this website presentation.

To see a full list (with links) of interviews which have been transcribed and posted on this website, click here. To read my thoughts on editing these interviews for print, as well as a few other interesting observations, click here.

* * * * *

Award - winning broadcaster Bruce Duffie was with WNIB, Classical 97 in Chicago from 1975 until its final moment as a classical station in February of 2001. His interviews have also appeared in various magazines and journals since 1980, and he now continues his broadcast series on WNUR-FM, as well as on Contemporary Classical Internet Radio.

You are invited to visit his website for more information about his work, including selected transcripts of other interviews, plus a full list of his guests. He would also like to call your attention to the photos and information about his grandfather, who was a pioneer in the automotive field more than a century ago. You may also send him E-Mail with comments, questions and suggestions.